The Mono Firefight

Well OK, it’s not a movie. But with all the excitement we’ve had lately about Mono I decided to do some research. to find out how it all started. Many links later, I think I’ve located the start of the current controversy, and a bit better understanding of it. This set of links is not exhaustive. I’ve no doubt missed many fascinating and well written articles. It is however what I was able to find by back linking from the articles I’ve read, and I think that it covers many of the important posts, along with some of the less important ones.

For historical reasons I’m starting with a post called Old mono rants from November 2006. I’ve included this because while it isn’t part of the current fuss, it does show that there were concerns that far back. And while this isn’t part of it either, there has been a number of posts over the years on how to remove Mono from Ubuntu. Ubuntu versions Hardy Heron and Intrpid Ibex were covered by the Open Sourcerer. He then wrote an article that he called The Mono Effect covering the surge in hits he got after each article. There was also an article at Boycott Novell titled Mono Watch: Where Is It All Coming From?.

But the reat start of the Firefight appears to be this post called ZOMG! TEH PATENTZ! from September 20, 2008 written by Jo “directhex” Shields. The post is an argument that patents aren’t dangerous to Mono, and starts:

Out there, clogged in the great wide intertubes, there is a veritable cornucopia of blogs, forum posts, and sites, where people like to discuss an important topic: how TEH PATENTZ will come and doom us all. This in itself is not a silly thing to think. For example, there are companies (so called patent trolls) who do not contribute anything to society, they simply buy others’ patents then make grandiose legal threats to earn cash. Or, in other cases, some companies like Sisvel literally send in the police to raid trade shows, sniffing about for those violating precious MP3 patents like pigs seeking truffles.

Other than the Lolcat style title, and this really cute image:

he’s written a well worded critique of the patent system, and why there are probably no dangers in Mono. Jo does reference earlier blog postings, but after having looked at them, I think his post is really the one that started the fur flying.

On October 28, 2008, Jo followed up with an excellent article on the importance of Standards, and how Mono follows them titled Life with Mono: Standards (good for me, good for you too).

The first major negative posting was on the Open Bytes blog, and was titled MONO 2.0 – Beware of a Novell bearing gifts on November 23rd. In it the author had a cartoon depicting Bill Gates of Borg

Things were relatively quiet until the new year, when Neptune235 posted [Mono-list] I need help with FUD to the Mono list at Ximian on January 16th. It was a plea for help, which ended in HELP ME STOP THE FUD! :). He got an answer from Adam Tauno Williams the same day, which said It can’t be stopped, it is vague blather. Just ignore it, any attempt to argue with trolls only feeds the flames. He also got an answer from Jonathan Pryor which said Software patents suck. Jonathan isn’t too bright. It isn’t that software patents don’t suck, they do. The problem is that ALL patents suck, and only a total shut down of the Patent System will fix the problem.

Jonathan later expanded on his original answer in a blog post titled How To Defend Against Software Patent FUD – You don’t. – Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha¹⁰⁰⁰. on January 19th.

Then someone submitted an idea to Ubuntu Brainstorm on March 30 – Idea #18932: Remove Rythmbox as library player. While all of the other posts are nice background, this is the one that really got the fire going. It was partially based on some comments by the developer of Rythmbox, Jonathan Matthew, which many people took to mean that Rythmbox development was ending. Jonathan posted that his original comments had been misunderstood, but a lot of people missed that.

Coincidently a day later the polar bear excrement hit the rotary oscillator. Yep, on April Fools Day, a programmer named Hubert Figuiere announced that In my attempts to fight my own boredom he’d decided to attempt to port Tomboy, a Mono application to C++ in his blog in an article titled porting to C++. Because of the date most people took his post for a prank. A couple of days later he released Gnote 0.1.0, and a day later Gnote 0.1.1, a bug fix, was released. And the on April 14th he posted to the Ubuntu Forums Ubuntu PPA for Gnote (C++ port of Tomboy). The first response to his post was short and to the point Thanks! Less Microsoft ‘intellectual property’ in our OS less worries for us!. Jo Shields also responded, and his response was less happy Still missing most of Tomboy’s features, and involving wholesale license & copyright violation. Jo never explained how a port could be a copyright or license violation. Possibly some day he will, I’d like to see his explanation. The thread ended up covering 18 pages worth of posts, ending only when a Ubuntu admin, cariboo907, posted The membership has spoken, this is not a democracy, this thread is closed. Please quit trying to push forward your own agenda. Exactly who this was addressed to wasn’t clear, as both pro and anti mono posters were involved.

On April 15th Hubert announced that Gnote was now in the GNOME Repositories, and that Gnote 0.1.2 was now available.

On April 19th Jo decided to throw gasoline on the fire. In a post titled Fitting the kitchen sink onto a CD he argued that replacing the bloated C application Rythmbox with svelt mono application Banshee would save space. Those are his words, not mine. He got 122 comments as of when I last checked, so I guess he got people thinking.

While Miguel de Icaza is mostly responsible for Mono, he hasn’t made many comments that I could find about the controversy (I expect to be inundated with Miguel quotes now – GRIN) except this one, where he references Jo Shield’s post about CD space – Banshee and Tomboy over the weekend.

Then we get into the really fun stuff. What can you say about a post titled I eat FUD like you for breakfast from the ‘KILL THEM ALL AND LET A NORSE GOD SORT EM OUT’ blog. He references the infamous Tomboy 0.14.1, the future, and a word about Gnote which says:

Some people have started asking about Gnote, Hubert Figuiere’s line-for-line port of Tomboy to C++. Our stance on Gnote is that it is counterproductive to maintain identical software in two languages. It will be harmful to the community, especially as these two apps inevitably diverge. It will result in duplication of effort, duplication of bugs, and a lot of wasted time for those who are trying to add value to the user experience, which statement was considered hilarious by those who were arguing that Mono was a waste of effort, being a port of a Microsoft program/technology, that it would be harmful the community and counter productive.

James Westby wrote a response the next day to Jo’s suggestion about replacing Rythmbox with Banshee – Banshee as the default mediaplayer?. James wasn’t happy about the idea.

Meantime Hubert was soldiering on, an April 22nd he announced Gnote 0.2.0.

The lastest set of instructions for how to remove Mono from Ubuntu was published April 23 – How to remove Mono from Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope.

On the 27th, Jo published the rather strangely titled Deconstruction of Falling Stars where he analysed his traffic. I almost ignored this post, I thought it was about Babylon 5.

And Hubert keeps soldiering on, and announces the release of Gnote 0.3.0.

The first major site to notice anything was happening was LWN on May 1st – Tomboy, Gnote, and the limits of forks. The author didn’t seem to understand some of the concepts though.

Jo got back into the act the same day with Don’t gloat about bloat. He raises some good points – though I disagree with him on Evolution and other email clients. I think that they should all be dumped, the majority of people read email online in the 21st century.

And Hubert keeps soldiering on, and announces the release of Gnote 0.3.1. Is this guy a bot?

I like Sam Varghese. He digs and finds out things that other people miss. His The elusive, royalty-free patent licence for Mono published on May 25 was a beauty. If you haven’t read it, I’d suggest you do so.

Monobuntu Developer Summit notes from the indefatigable Jo Shields.

And Hubert keeps soldiering on, and announces the release of Gnote 0.4.0. Maybe he’s a Dalek?

Someone put in a Brainstorm suggestion – Idea #20016: Keep Rhythmbox don’t move to worse alternatives. Brainstorm doesn’t show how many people voted, so it’s hard to tell whether 28 votes is a significant number or not.

The Me and Ubuntu blog decided to try to cover the controversy in Disinformation Disinfected, Pt. 1.

Sam Varghese wrote an article called How GNU/Linux users can keep Mono at bay on June 1st about the Mononono package.

Linux Journal posted the results of it’s annual Readers’ Choice Awards 2009 on the same day. The only Mono application which was mentioned was F-Spot, and it didn’t win it’s category.

The Me and Ubuntu blog’s second post was published on June 1st – Disinformation Disinfected, Pt. 2: The False Dilemma. Also, rather quietly a new project was announced, Solang which later in the month would add to the fire.

Ars covered Tomboy in Tomboy note app gains Web sync, showcases power of open Web.

Roy at Boycott Novell published Mono: An Infectious Disease — An Article by Chris Smart on June 2. The name of the article was definitely noticeable.

On June 4, Sam Varghese published Fedora casts Mono into outer darkness. Is Sam a Mormon?

The announcement on June 6 that Banshee 1.5.0 had been released!.

Boycott Novell reported that Ubuntu is Censoring Opposition to Mono by Default on June 6th. Damning if true.

On June 9th Linux Canuck reports Ubuntu is Driving Me Away.

Carla Schroeder published Open Invitation to Mono Proponents to Set the Record Straight on June 11.

Jo Shields volunteered to write a reply, A Guest Essay In Favor of Mono (#1) which he also reposted on his own blog as Here we go again – why Mono doesn’t suck.

Me and Ubuntu published his third part Disinformation Disinfected, pt. 3: Banshee in Ubuntu.

Robert Millan wrote an article Mono in the default install?, which inspired a response Robert Millan in the default troll?.

Boycott Novell reports that Real-time Linux Hacker Bill Huey Called the Mono Plan ‘Misguided’.

On the 13th Linux Today published Mono in the Default Debian Install.

A Brainstorm idea was published – Idea #20257: Change Tomboy for Gnote.

In the Ubuntu forums questions were asked question about the banshee switch…..

On the 13th Me and Ubuntu announced that I give up.

There was further coverage at Boycott Novell Fedora “Concerned” About Mono for Legal Reasons, Ubuntu Debate Carries on.

And if you care about flame wars read The very best of anti-Mono zealots.

The on the 14th we get Mono, here we go again.

On the 15th Signs of Mono Unrest, Legal Issues.

On the 16th things for real exciting. Mono, Here We Go Again started the day, and then we had Debian may include Mono in default install, which is clear of grammatically inaccurate, then we had Debian is Not Including Mono by Default, Yet, which is nice and unclear, and then the classic Disappeared Thread. Also someone finally noticed Solang. One commentator (not listed, as it’s in Italian) even claimed it was an F-Spot port. Hot day.

And Hubert keeps soldiering on, and announces the release of Gnote 0.5.0. Think about this. It’s only been 68 days since he started. I’m really not sure if this guy is human. Maybe he’s a Cyberman.

Also on the 17th we get New Push for Gnote in Ubuntu by Default.

On the 20th it’s reported that there are Whisper Campaigns Against Gnote.

Now we get to the fun stuff. Should I include my own posts? The one is an earlier version of this article, which doesn’t do justice to the complexity of the issue, but here it is anyway – Monotremes and Monotrolls. As you may have gathered, I’m not a fan of Mono.

On the same day, the 21st Stefano Forenza write >a href=”http://www.stefanoforenza.com/hands-off-the-gimp/”>Hands off the Gimp, and Boycott Novell covered the same issue with Please Don’t Replace the GIMP with F-Spot (Mono).

Linux Insider wrote Is Linux Suffering From Mono? Of course they couldn’t answer the question. Right now know one knows for sure, except possibly Steve Ballmer. But people are opiniated, as in Praise the Mono and Pass the Ammo.

And of course someone had to have fun with Jo Shield’s name – Mono: Shielding the facts.

The Nixed Report published Why Mono is a Red Herring.

Stefano announced that Solang is in Ubuntu repositories now.

Only one entry on the 24th – Roy posted about Potential Future Replacement for F-Spot Enters Ubuntu. Quiet day. But we know it can’t last!

Sam Varghese reports Ubuntu may increase Mono-dependent apps on June 25th.

There there’s this idea awaiting moderation at Brainstorm Idea #20425: Evolution causes hassle when de-install(ed/ing). I don’t know how quickly ideas are moderated, but this one has been sitting since June 26th.

Roy covers more in Latest Lies and Denials from Mono Advocates, Microsoft.

And then the big guns fire. Richard Stallman issues a statement, Why free software shouldn’t depend on Mono or C#. I think this was posted on the 27th, the FSF site does some weird things.

Sam covers Mono again with Ubuntu tech board plays down Mono IP concerns on the 27th.

Jo, the only pledge I can think of is the one you take when you join AA. The Pledge.

OK, so I’m quoting myself again. Got to admit I sure can write (G). Stallman’s statement on Mono. I posted this on June 28th. Roy also commented on Stallman’s statement with Responses to Richard Stallman’s Verdict on Mono. Learning Ubuntu posted on How to Completely Remove Mono on Ubuntu.

The Mono project got me thinking about Evolution. Evolution is one of the reasons that I abandoned Ubuntu for Moon OS. So I wrote Why Evolution?.

The next day Sam announced GNOME 3.0 may have more Mono apps. Roy at Boycott Novell wrote Microsoft and Novell Still Fight for .NET Inside GNU/Linux, and also GNOME’s Evolution Proceeds as Planned?.

On the 30th Gray Geek posted Why? questioning why there was such a heavy push to get Mono into Linux? On the same day someone submitted an idea to Brainstorm titled Idea #20473: Mono is not as necessary as wine, which is still awaiting moderation. Roy at Boycott Novell wrote More People Say “No” to Mono, Including the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC). ZDnet wondered whether Will Stallman C# Warning Fall Flat. Then poor Sanjeev weighed in. Yes, I’m calling him poor Sanjeev, he didn’t know what he was saying, and said something that he shouldn’t. I replied to him in detail A Response to: Fuck you, Richard Stallman and other GNU/Trolls. Sanjeev and I talked in IRC after that, and quite frankly he’s a real nice guy, who I’d like to meet someday.

Debian felt compelled to state that Mono is not in our default install. I almost missed this on, I was working on my Microsoft Financials post. July First was a busy day, considering it’s our national holiday, I didn’t get a lot of rest in! Roy wrote Poll: 62% Don’t Trust Microsoft on Mono. Last time I checked it had gone up to 64%. Roy also wrote Who Promotes Mono? Microsoft and Novell, and Sam wrote Ubuntu says yes to Mono, SFLC says no. Oh, and I missed this one until after I’d published this post – My take on the Mono/C# debate. The author is pro-mono.

On the second Debian claims Mono not part of default install.

And to close off, Bruce Byfield write’s Let’s Settle the Mono Debate and we have one more from Sam Varghese, Mono developer uses f-word to abuse RMS. Poor Sanjeev.

OK, so what does it all mean?

Well there are issues around Mono, including patents. This means that some people, myself included now refuse to use it. Those that are pro-mono don’t seem to understand exactly why everyone isn’t shouting hosannas over their projects. Indeed one of them classified Tomboy as ‘An Exciting Program’, which stunned me. Tomboy? Exciting? I didn’t think so.

Since neither side is likely to move, to combat has moved to the Distribution level. Fedora is going to get rid of Mono. Ubuntu is going to keep it. It’s possible that Mono could be the issue that dethrones Ubuntu from the top of the Distrowatch listing. Fedora has been gaining on Ubuntu for over a year now, and while it’s well back, who knows where it will be a year from now.

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19 Responses to The Mono Firefight

  1. Anonymous says:

    I have problems with anything posted on boycottnovell.com as there once was a comment posted questioning an article posted and the original author (one of the boycotnovell people) admitted that he didn't really think it was true but posted it as fact none the less. The problem with the site and it's opinions are that they have to be negative (not honest or truthful) to meet their goal of trashing Novell. In the US they would be akin to FOX News ("fair and balanced" but in name only).I sometimes wonder if the sites goal is even more nefarious because if Novell failed, which is their goal who would pick up the contributions that Novell makes to the community – especially on the desktop side as Oracle, IBM, SUN, RedHat, etc.. are more focused on the kernel and server side apps and iirc Ubuntu takes more than it gives (at least regarding the kernel).Also by association since Miguel co-founded Gnome and Mono shouldn't we worry that it too (Gnome)is evil (and we just don't know how yet).

  2. The Mad Hatter says:

    I have problems with anything posted on boycottnovell.com as there once was a comment posted questioning an article posted and the original author (one of the boycotnovell people) admitted that he didn't really think it was true but posted it as fact none the less. The problem with the site and it's opinions are that they have to be negative (not honest or truthful) to meet their goal of trashing Novell. In the US they would be akin to FOX News ("fair and balanced" but in name only).That's interesting. Which article was it, and who said it? That sort of information I can really use.I sometimes wonder if the sites goal is even more nefarious because if Novell failed, which is their goal who would pick up the contributions that Novell makes to the community – especially on the desktop side as Oracle, IBM, SUN, RedHat, etc.. are more focused on the kernel and server side apps and iirc Ubuntu takes more than it gives (at least regarding the kernel).You could make the same argument about Dream Linux, Mandriva, or ArtistX, as you did about Ubuntu, as far as taking more than giving. But at the same time we have to consider whether or not Novell is doing more damage than good. Just as we do with every other corporate contributor to Free Software, and based on our evaluation, we either give them our support or with hold it.Also by association since Miguel co-founded Gnome and Mono shouldn't we worry that it too (Gnome)is evil (and we just don't know how yet).Is Gnome evil? I didn't know that. Do you have any documentation to back this assertion up? I could really use it if you do.

  3. hub says:

    Quick correction: I never posted to the Ubuntu forums. It is the first Ubuntu packager that did it on his own.And no, I am not a bot. Just a cylon.

  4. Anonymous says:

    Let's straight things up! The trashing was started by Novell by signing a nefarious patent deal with Microsoft. This was a betrayal of the community knowing Microsoft undeniable history. They trashed the whole community by getting in bed with Microsoft. By the way though many deny it, this patent deal covers Mono! This patent deal leaves every other distributions in limbo regarding "patent" infringements. Novell the company who promotes Mono is the only one that offers "peace of mind". That's what makes Mono dangerous to any distribution but Novell.Users want freedom to install the software we want. Mono shouldn't be in the default installation of Ubuntu or any distribution. To my opinion, they belong to the repositories. If someone wants it, she/he may install it. To many Mono might be the last wonder but as a user I don't want it on my desktop. Why give Microsoft the tools to destroy GNU/Linux its main threat.Novell, doesn't worry because this is its goal. Let the most capable distributions be neutralized/destroyed and Novell only stay afloat. Thanks to their whoring attitude to sign a patent deal with Microsoft.There are other distributions that contribute enormously to Linux development not only Novell. Just a pearl look Fedora. I don't thing that only Ubuntu takes more that it gives. Red Hat & Debian have been around longer than Ubuntu.As I user I was driven away by Ubuntu, I'm deploying Fedora/Centos to friends and relatives & Debian so long as they don't include Mono.

  5. James the disciple says:

    Would this work:http://www.raiden.net/articles/the_libdave_method_of_patent_immunity/Just thought as I'm getting tired of all this rubbish about patents and mono. If there is a risk, then the answer should be "NO". When you look at the deal between MS and Novel, it protect the users as well, do you think MS would go after the developer(s), or the user? Is MS protecting patents or out to destroy Linux? If the later, then MS would surely go after the users to stop them using Linux. Linux would be damaged.I beats me as why such intelligent poeple can't see the obvious and the bigger picture. MS must be laughing their pretty little socks off over this!

  6. nandan says:

    There is some new stuff thats come up today as well.Whether it means much, I do not know !http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/microsoft-issues-patent-promise-dispels-mono-concerns.ars

  7. James the disciple says:

    The FSF are not impressed because there is a large part of mono that still has the threat of patant issues. Statement to follow soon, apparantly.

  8. The Mad Hatter says:

    While the idea of using a Writ of Negative Averment is cute, it appears that there are tactics which can be used against one, including just ignoring it (as the United States Government appears to have done in this case:http://hrmakahinui.com/affidavit-of-publication.phpOf course Microsoft isn't as big as the United States government, so this may not be a safe option for them. And if a large number of people tried to do this, they would probably try to get a court to declare that the writs were null and void 'en masse'. I'm not a lawyer, so this is just a guess as to what they might do, but I can't see them trying to void the things one at a time, and I can't see the court system forcing them to do that, as this would be an obvious case of harassment Don't take my word on this though. Any time you want or need legal advice, see a lawyer. It will probably cost you less to talk to a lawyer now, than it would to have one clear up the mess later.

  9. The Open Sourcerer says:

    Hey Cranky Old Nutcase/Mad Hatter (who ever you are),Great write up, thanks.

  10. The Mad Hatter says:

    Hey Cranky Old Nutcase/Mad Hatter (who ever you are),Great write up, thanks.Thanks for the compliment. As for me, well, I'm me. 25% nuts, 25% insane, 25% sociopath, 25% paranoid, 25% narcissistic, 25% egomaniac, 25% genius, 25% fussbudget, and all incredible.Yeah, and I'm full of horse manure!

  11. Capheind says:

    One thing I haven't heard anyone talk about is what patents, specifically, actually cover .net? and what is the actual wording in the Novell agreement? Does it protect users of mono, or just Novell customers?

  12. Anonymous says:

    The vast majority of Mono supporters come from the Novell camp, but Novell has this pesky patent agreement with Microsoft and some Mono software explicitly states that you must get it from the Novell web site to receive patent immunity. So, if Mono supporters *really* believe that Mono is free and open and safe, convince Novell to exit its patent agreement with Microsoft. After all, Microsoft has stated that OOXML, Mono, and friends are perfectly safe, so Novell doesn't receive any special patent protection anyway, right? So what value is there is being in the agreement if Novell is honest? Or maybe they will make a public statement disavowing the patent protection but stay in the agreement for the mutual promotion aspect. But if so, Mono may be safe, but Novell would just be a Mono advertisement agency so there's no reason to listen to the Mono promoting crowd.If Novell really believes in Mono and feels that it is good and safe technology, the only way way to prove it is to leave the Microsoft-Novell agreement. Anything less is just smoke.From a personal perspective, I see no value in the Mono stack. Everything in Mono exists outside of Mono at a smaller footprint and often better design. I have no idea why someone would want to use Tomboy. Web 2.0 fans and corporate users already have wikis available for them that include instant collaboration and tonnes of more features and interoperability. F-Spot thinks it owns the world. I'd must rather use something lean and targetted like gThumb. Even if Novell agrees to "join the rest of us" to prove Mono is safe, I just don't see a technical advantage to even having Mono. Programs written in C, C++, and Python just see better for some reason…perhaps because the developers are mostly interested in solving problems rather than being "cool".If the reason is to pull Microsoft developers, then there's a better candidate: Javascript. There are probably more people who know Javascript than any other scripting language and more than a few significant projects (e.g. Firefox, GNOME Shell, etc) and a great deal of work has been done on optimizing Javascript for the Web. Granted, Javascript has a bit of a reputation, but a reputation didn't stop VB and PHP from being as popular as they became, and modern Javascript, like modern PHP, has largely overcome those issues and there's no sign that Javascript use will anything but increase in the future.To me, Mono is a solution looking for a problem.

  13. okubax says:

    as an Ubuntu user, I couldn't care less if mono is installed by default or not. All i know is that I like using f-spot and I still can't find a suitable alternative, I like organizing my notes using Tomboy and I hate Banshee cos' it messes up my compilation albums. Fedora is shit anyway so bugger to that ! and Stallman can't tell me what I can/can't install on my pc. And before people start to shout, I do believe in the Free/Open source movement and I am a fully paid member of the FSF. So all this bickering won't help anyone. So to the author keep hating(its an advice), BTW do you know that Gnome-Do uses mono too ??.Conclusion – A quote from Jamie Zawinsky-Of course, all of the software I write runs on Linux; that's the beauty of standards, and of cross-platform code. I don't have to run your OS, and you don't have to run mine, and we can use the same applications anyway!

  14. The Mad Hatter says:

    Capheind said… One thing I haven't heard anyone talk about is what patents, specifically, actually cover .net? and what is the actual wording in the Novell agreement? Does it protect users of mono, or just Novell customers?We don't know what patents might possibly be involved, as Microsoft has not identified them, and is not going to identify them except in court. There is no advantage to Microsoft in identifying the patents, and a big disadvantage in that every single one would be taken apart by experts, and re-examination requests would be immediately filed with the patent office. Waiting until the patents are used in court limits the time that other parties have to attack, and possibly invalidate the patents.And no, the Novell deal doesn't appear to cover anyone but Novell customers from what has been published.

  15. The Mad Hatter says:

    Anonymous said… The vast majority of Mono supporters come from the Novell camp, but Novell has this pesky patent agreement with Microsoft and some Mono software explicitly states that you must get it from the Novell web site to receive patent immunity.And even if you do get it directly from the Novell web site, you aren't a Novell customer unless money changes hands. Remember that. So, if Mono supporters *really* believe that Mono is free and open and safe, convince Novell to exit its patent agreement with Microsoft. After all, Microsoft has stated that OOXML, Mono, and friends are perfectly safe, so Novell doesn't receive any special patent protection anyway, right? So what value is there is being in the agreement if Novell is honest? Or maybe they will make a public statement disavowing the patent protection but stay in the agreement for the mutual promotion aspect. But if so, Mono may be safe, but Novell would just be a Mono advertisement agency so there's no reason to listen to the Mono promoting crowd.Do you know how much money Novell makes out of this deal? There's no way that Novell will back out of the deal. Based on their SEC filings I believe that this deal is the only thing that keeps them from filing for Chapter 11. If Novell really believes in Mono and feels that it is good and safe technology, the only way way to prove it is to leave the Microsoft-Novell agreement. Anything less is just smoke. From a personal perspective, I see no value in the Mono stack. Everything in Mono exists outside of Mono at a smaller footprint and often better design. I have no idea why someone would want to use Tomboy. Web 2.0 fans and corporate users already have wikis available for them that include instant collaboration and tonnes of more features and interoperability. F-Spot thinks it owns the world. I'd must rather use something lean and targetted like gThumb. Even if Novell agrees to "join the rest of us" to prove Mono is safe, I just don't see a technical advantage to even having Mono. Programs written in C, C++, and Python just see better for some reason…perhaps because the developers are mostly interested in solving problems rather than being "cool".The problem is that none of the software that uses Mono is cool. If it was, there'd be far greater uptake of the software. Instead the Mono fans have to push to have it included in distros.Cool software gets used. Since F-Spot, Tomboy, Gnomedo, and Banshee are niche apps, it's not just me that they don't impress. If the reason is to pull Microsoft developers, then there's a better candidate: Javascript. There are probably more people who know Javascript than any other scripting language and more than a few significant projects (e.g. Firefox, GNOME Shell, etc) and a great deal of work has been done on optimizing Javascript for the Web. Granted, Javascript has a bit of a reputation, but a reputation didn't stop VB and PHP from being as popular as they became, and modern Javascript, like modern PHP, has largely overcome those issues and there's no sign that Javascript use will anything but increase in the future. To me, Mono is a solution looking for a problem.But does Free Software really need Microsoft developers? Right now I suspect that the Free Software ecosystem is bigger than the Proprietary Software ecosystem. Not that they wouldn't welcome them if came. Of course they'd be welcome. But Free Software is no longer the weak force that it was when Stallman wrote the original GPL.

  16. The Mad Hatter says:

    okubax said… as an Ubuntu user, I couldn't care less if mono is installed by default or not. All i know is that I like using f-spot and I still can't find a suitable alternative, I like organizing my notes using Tomboy and I hate Banshee cos' it messes up my compilation albums. Fedora is shit anyway so bugger to that ! and Stallman can't tell me what I can/can't install on my pc. And before people start to shout, I do believe in the Free/Open source movement and I am a fully paid member of the FSF. So all this bickering won't help anyone. So to the author keep hating(its an advice), BTW do you know that Gnome-Do uses mono too ??.So install mono. Use Tomboy and F-Spot. I'm not trying to stop you. I just don't think it should be included in the CD-Rom. There's nothing wrong with it being in the repositories, where people can MAKE a choice. Conclusion – A quote from Jamie Zawinsky- Of course, all of the software I write runs on Linux; that's the beauty of standards, and of cross-platform code. I don't have to run your OS, and you don't have to run mine, and we can use the same applications anyway!100% agreed. While I was still running Windows alongside OSX and Linux, every computer had Firefox, OpenOffice, Videolan, etc.

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  18. The Mad Hatter says:

    July 15, 2009 9:05 PM jacks said…I am webmaster of Itsolusenz Software Development Company Microsoft Certified, IT Solutions Company, offering Custom Software application development and web site development in India.August 14, 2009 9:36 AMThat's really nice. Glad you have a job. Now why did you bother telling us about it?Seriously. You came here for a reason, and I'd like to hear what it is, whether you agree, don't agree, don't understand, or just want to say hi.

  19. Pingback: Monotremes and Monotrolls Redux | Through the Looking Glass

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